The Tech fast track

[systematic.entropy]

I'm posting this here, and may end up posting in on another board as well. But, I wanted to mention it here, given that I know for a fact that there are a good deal of people in the area involved.

What I'm speaking of, is the tech diving "fast track". I'll start off by saying, I, myself am very guilty of it, but I have my reasons and rationality. I have noticed a good deal of people, at least in the Milwaukee area, who have jumped into technical diving and really pushed the learning curve in the last couple years. The common view of technical diving is a place divers end up. It's a goal. This is illustrated by the common technical diver seen on most charters in the area. I'll tell you, they're usually in their 30s or early 40s, and have been diving since the dark ages, and may have built unpon experience through the years, with 40 or 50 nitrox dives, a few dozen deco dives, well you get the idea.

Now, up comes a trio of late twenty year old guys all in bright new gear, fresh out of their nitrox/adv. nitrox/deco/trimix weekend at wazee (joking, I don't know of anyone who's made that a package deal... yet).

So, what do people really think? Are things being set up for disaster? Does it really all depend on the diver? Perhaps it's better to start out in technical training, if thats where the beginning diver plans on ending up anyways, to help prevent bad habits in the beginning. I'm pretty sure there are divers on both sides of the table here, so, voice your opinion.

[DiveCaptDean]

I'll chime in......In my experience I have seen both models you speak of....I have seen people that i feel have no business diving deeper that 130..if that..that are adv nitrox deco certified..these are usually the ones that cant get in and out of their equipment alone..and that dont give me any confidence in their ability when on my boat...some of them have gone on to improve greatly some have not.......some have been diving for a long time..some have not...of these that i speak, i dont think any were trained in the milwaukee area.........of the divers that i have experience with from the milwaukee area or that were trained in the milwaukee area..i have had good luck....young or old..a couple of the older ones  are very safe and cautious  and not aggressive..some of the younger ones.maybe a little more aggressive, but perform proper planning and apply safe practices........keeping in mind this can be flip flopped as well..there are some divers in the area that are still at the top of their game and have been diving deep for 20 years..........and much deeper than most others...you all know them..but i will not mention names here

Keep in mind i am not chartering in Milwaukee any more:

I know of a couple of groups in the Milwaukee area that i would dive with any time and or take them anywhere they wanted to go..for the most part..most are adv trimix cert.....some of them i took early training with and knew that they were very good divers before their advanced training..some i have only seen in the water a couple of times.....many of them i know who instructed them..and frankly......cannot think of a better instructor........people call him "floating budha" and if you have seen him in the water you would know why.....were talking about an instructor that didnt even start technical diving or instructing technical diving  until he had more that 2000 dives..most of which are in local waters....Many of the divers he trained were also rec instrucotrs for a while prior to taking technical courses..they are solid divers.....I also know of a group of divers that dive technically...but do not have proper education..they have been doing it for a while, but i still dont trust this type of diving....granted in my diving youth..i have done the same..(hypocrite)

I dont think that jumping into technical diving after a couple of hundred rec dives is a problem...i do however think that jumping into tech diving after 50 or 100 rec dives IS A PROBLEM...I dont like to see technical divers from southern oceans as much as i like seeing technical divers from the great lakes...There is a big difference........I am agreat lakes captain and diver..i guess its just what i am more comfy with....i have had divers from other countries on the boat...a few of them i was not comfy with.........

i think the diver has to prove him-her self to you prior to passing judgement..good top side diving practices are a good start, and one can see these prior to seeing someone in the water....also fo rme..I have been know to ask who their instructor was if i didnt know..this can usually give me a good sign as well.....

cool post by the way
Deano

[arcFlash]

I'm kind of on the fast track but my reason is like systematic.entropy last few lines. I know what I want to do and learning it all up front lets me grow into my training. I wouldn't take a trimix now although I may qualify but at this point I learned were my skills start falling apart. So I can start working systematically to increase my skill with no allusion that I can return to 150 feet until I am ready.

Learning quickly is one thing, trying to do things quickly is another. I have deco and don't think I'll see 100 feet this summer. I am kind of a perfectionist in that I have little tolerance for sloppy diving skills in myself and others. I all but bite my mouth piece off evertime someone swims by kicking up the bottom on me.

[Nordic Diver]

Hi Guys

This is a great topic and a very difficult one to try and not irate someone somewhere.

It does seem that a lot of divers with  relative short diving careers are getting into Technical diving these days. While i personally like to see this because i myself have been a Great Lakes Tech diver for over 20 years at times i think some are going way to fast for there own good.

What a lot of new technical divers seem to forget is just because the C - Card says you can make the tri-mix dive to 250 ffw does not mean you should do so. Training is a stepping stone to knowledge about this sport. Making the dive when all goes as planned is one thing, completing the dive safely after everthing goes to hell is another and this takes many seasons of diving to master.

On the other side of the coin i have had divers on the Nordic Diver that were recently certified for the deeper dives that performed very well both in and out of the water. I agree with Dean, a lot of times you can tell when they are standing on the back deck of the boat if there capable divers.

While a big thing in this sport is getting the training, i would prefer a diver with both the training and experience and when i say experience i don't mean 200 dives with half of them in wazee. While Wazee is a good training ground its far from the reality of Great Lakes diving with the waves and the boat rolling and ever changing conditions. Someone once asked me what training we do to dive wrecks like the Bradley & Aurania, my answer was 25 years of Great Lakes diving.

I had a diver on my boat last season that has been technical diving for what some may say is a short period of time. This friend / customer has made a lot of dives off my boat in the past couple years and last season was one of four divers on the Aurania @ 440 ffw. He has accomplished much in a relatively short period of time but it takes hard work and dedication to the sport.

Of course instructors play a big part in all of this as well. There knowledge is what they are selling and they need to be good at passing it on too there students. I think there has been in recent years a severe shortage of qualified instructors at the Deco / tri-mix level. Its Great to see Guys like Mike Haynes from Underwater Connections & Keith from Wazee teaching deco / tri-mix classes for those who are looking to go deeper.

I hope everyone has a safe season !!

Capt Bill

Bill@nordicdiver.com
630-880-4606

[DiveCaptDean]

I think Bill just summed up a bit of what i was saying.....funny...i thinki mentioned someone that had been tech diving in the great lakes for 20 years..wonder who that was

as bill also mentioned Mike"Floating Budha"Haynes..is both a fantastic instructor, a fantastic diver..and a fantastic friend......if you are looking for instruction..youd be hard pressed to find a better instructor........keep in mind there are other great instructors out there.....my preference is Mike..............if you need a milwaukee/great lakes based Technical charter( or recreational)  Its would be very hard to find better than Bill and Nordic Diver......talking about experience...hands down...he has it covered..and just about everyone that you can think of in the midwest technical diving world has probably dove with bill...or off of bills boat at one time or another.....

great topic

[matt t.]

Being HONEST with your self is the biggest factor in deciding if you're ready for "tech" diving. Are your skills where they need to be? What are your reasons for wanting to go deeper/longer? A good instructor will ask you that question in the first few minutes of your first conversation. A lot of newer divers see the gear and hear the stories and decide, "it can't be that hard"........and it isn't, until something goes wrong. Experience as Bill said, can be a big part of making it out of a bad situation, good training is another. I don't think you can say that a certain # of dives qualifies you to dive doubles, take advanced nitrox/deco, take tri-mix, take a cave class, etc. It really comes down to each diver and their personal skill and comfort level in the water. Finances are another part of the equation. Technical diving isn't something you can do in-expensively. This is another area where the diver needs to be honest with him/herself. Can you afford it? There are certain pieces of gear that you will need to have, and the associated maintenance of the gear (02 cleaning and visuals every year, and hydro's every 5 years on a bunch of tanks, maintenance and service kits for 4-6 regulators) and boat charters to see the "good" wrecks. Typically on a weekend, I'll spend almost as much on breathing gasses as the boat charter fees. If you can't afford to "Do It Right" (pun intended; yeah I know, it's not really a pun ;D) you need to take another look and decide if this is really for you. Just my $.02. It's worth what you payed for it  .

[ehuber]

Move at your own pace and be-damned with what other people say or think. 

Nobody should care what others are doing, and if they do... they can pound sand or pick another dive buddy.  It is your life, it is your leisure activity, and it is also your arse if you screw up.  Just don't take anyone down with you and be honest with them about your skill level, certification levels, and comfort in the water.  Risking someone else's life for a selfish purpose would be disgusting.

[systematic.entropy]

True to a point. I am always welcome to criticism. Whether I agree with it or not, I am always willing to listen to it and make my own considerations regarding my diving.

However, with regards to the caring about what other people are doing. This, I believe is something that we all need to should consider. Am I advocating some kind of new minimum requirements? No. I am however, saying that as a community, we should pay some attention to what seem to be common practices. And yes, if you pay attention to actual divers, these trends do change. And if I see a diver doing something that I feel is unsafe, I will at the very least discuss with them, their reasons for their choice and try to raise questions about their judgement.

With regard to the tech buddy comment, true, if you don't feel comfortable diving with someone, don't. And, yes, if someone screws up, it is their life. However, ultimatly, these actions reflect on our community as a whole. This thread was not intended to attack the tech buddy system. Because, when diving at the technical level, you should consider yourself to be solo diving. That is the reason for redundancy and proper training and experience. No matter the situation when in the overhead or deep environment, you should have the equipment and training to be 100% self-relient. No exceptions.

[josh b.]

You know....being one of those young guys, I understand much criticism comes from it.  I can at least say for myself that practice makes better and skill is never underminded.  From my point of view, skill and experience makes or brakes you, I try hard to accomplish both and to do my job of  being not only the best buddy during a deep dive, but also as a demonstration to divers younger and older than I am.

I try my best, and I put in my hours of practice and knowing my gear configurations to hopefully be comfortable and confident to dive with the best of 'em.  As long as I can keep this going, and as long as others can do the same....I'll at least be happy.

Agree?

[Vtach]

I don't have a problem with the "fast track" to tech diving.  I think the key to success with the fast track is knowing your limitations.  The most obvious limitation in this case is competence.  I consider competence as the combination of experience and mastery.  Education, training and practice are the key factors to mastery.  If you are comfortable with the equipment and have mastered basic skills, the proper training and frequent practice will provide a qualified entry level technical diver.  Once you demonstrate that level of mastery, you need to work on experience.  Frequent dives planned within and near the limits of you competence level will provide a great base for advancement to deeper and/or more technical dives.  It is my opinion that recognizing this limitation along with good instructors/mentors and frequent practice can quickly build a solid technical diver relatively quickly and safely.

I can respect individuals who decide to take the fast track and still understand the importance of proper training, equipment, practice and most importantly competence.  Josh, I think you have the right attitude.  I hope it's a virus and spreading. ;D  I also agree with the importance of setting good examply in diving, good point by systematic entropy.  People can ultimately do what they want and there is no limit on ignorance in some cases, so be it.  But what about the people effected by an ignorant divers death?  What about the family?  What about the Captain?  What about the other members of the group?  If you ever have to deal with the fallout after a unnecessary death, you may rethink your opinion.  It effects everyone directly involved, sometimes quite significantly.  Sometimes it is worth a try to address issues than be silent and deal with the after effects.

That being said, I have zero respect for the individuals out there knowingly diving well beyond their competence level.  Especially those who promote themselves as "competent" but yet demonstrate one way or another that they lack the knowledge, education and equipment to properly plan and execute even entry level technical dives.  An accident waiting to happen...