Deco Tables discussion

[WIdiver_Paul]

I would like to start a thread here to analyse deco tables that you have cut and used, or plan to use, or even theoretical dive discussion.
I am curious for instance the profiles that many of you have been using for diving on the Willy, the Milwaukee Car Ferry and Lake Wazee deep dives- what deco gases? runtime? bottom time? gas requirement? what your RMV is? How much gas did you exit with?

I'll start this discussion with a problem I've been trying to work out, that I can't get V-Planner to help me with: namely, i've been trying to figure out how they did that 1026' record-setting dive without getting a CNS hit! The following is a printout from V-planner for the best that I have been able to come up with....


Paul

[WIdiver_Paul]

Dec to 190ft   (3) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 50ft/min descent.
Dec to 200ft   (4) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 50ft/min descent.
Dec to 495ft   (8) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 60ft/min descent.
Dec to 500ft   (9) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 60ft/min descent.
Dec to 1000ft   (15) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 80ft/min descent.
Level 1000ft 4:45 (20) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.62 ppO2, 72ft ead, 70ft end
Asc to 910ft   (23) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 910ft 1:00 (24) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.57 ppO2, 62ft ead, 61ft end
Stop at 900ft 1:00 (25) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.56 ppO2, 61ft ead, 60ft end
Stop at 890ft 1:00 (26) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.56 ppO2, 60ft ead, 59ft end
Stop at 880ft 1:00 (27) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.55 ppO2, 59ft ead, 58ft end
Stop at 870ft 1:00 (28) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.55 ppO2, 58ft ead, 57ft end
Stop at 860ft 1:00 (29) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.54 ppO2, 57ft ead, 56ft end
Stop at 850ft 1:00 (30) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.53 ppO2, 56ft ead, 55ft end
Stop at 840ft 1:00 (31) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.53 ppO2, 55ft ead, 54ft end
Stop at 830ft 1:00 (32) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.52 ppO2, 54ft ead, 53ft end
Stop at 820ft 1:00 (33) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.52 ppO2, 53ft ead, 52ft end
Stop at 810ft 1:00 (34) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.51 ppO2, 52ft ead, 51ft end
Stop at 800ft 1:00 (35) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.50 ppO2, 51ft ead, 50ft end
Stop at 790ft 1:00 (36) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.50 ppO2, 50ft ead, 49ft end
Stop at 780ft 1:00 (37) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.49 ppO2, 49ft ead, 48ft end
Stop at 770ft 1:00 (38) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.49 ppO2, 48ft ead, 47ft end
Stop at 760ft 1:00 (39) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.48 ppO2, 47ft ead, 46ft end
Stop at 750ft 1:00 (40) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.47 ppO2, 46ft ead, 45ft end
Stop at 740ft 1:00 (41) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.47 ppO2, 45ft ead, 44ft end
Stop at 730ft 2:00 (43) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.46 ppO2, 44ft ead, 43ft end
Stop at 720ft 1:00 (44) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.46 ppO2, 43ft ead, 42ft end
Stop at 710ft 1:00 (45) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.45 ppO2, 42ft ead, 41ft end
Stop at 700ft 2:00 (47) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.44 ppO2, 41ft ead, 40ft end
Stop at 690ft 1:00 (48) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.44 ppO2, 40ft ead, 39ft end
Stop at 680ft 2:00 (50) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.43 ppO2, 39ft ead, 38ft end
Stop at 670ft 2:00 (52) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.43 ppO2, 38ft ead, 37ft end
Stop at 660ft 2:00 (54) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.42 ppO2, 37ft ead, 36ft end
Stop at 650ft 2:00 (56) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.41 ppO2, 36ft ead, 35ft end
Stop at 640ft 1:00 (57) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.41 ppO2, 35ft ead, 34ft end
Stop at 630ft 2:00 (59) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.40 ppO2, 34ft ead, 33ft end
Stop at 620ft 2:00 (61) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.40 ppO2, 33ft ead, 32ft end
Stop at 610ft 3:00 (64) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.39 ppO2, 32ft ead, 31ft end
Stop at 600ft 2:00 (66) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.38 ppO2, 31ft ead, 30ft end
Stop at 590ft 3:00 (69) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.38 ppO2, 30ft ead, 29ft end
Stop at 580ft 3:00 (72) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.37 ppO2, 29ft ead, 28ft end
Stop at 570ft 2:00 (74) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.36 ppO2, 28ft ead, 27ft end
Stop at 560ft 3:00 (77) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.36 ppO2, 27ft ead, 26ft end
Stop at 550ft 3:00 (80) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.35 ppO2, 26ft ead, 25ft end
Stop at 540ft 4:00 (84) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.35 ppO2, 25ft ead, 24ft end
Stop at 530ft 3:00 (87) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.34 ppO2, 24ft ead, 23ft end
Stop at 520ft 4:00 (91) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.33 ppO2, 23ft ead, 22ft end
Stop at 510ft 3:00 (94) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.33 ppO2, 22ft ead, 21ft end
Stop at 500ft 4:00 (98) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.32 ppO2, 21ft ead, 20ft end
Stop at 490ft 4:00 (102) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.32 ppO2, 20ft ead, 19ft end
Stop at 480ft 5:00 (107) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.31 ppO2, 19ft ead, 18ft end
Stop at 470ft 5:00 (112) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.30 ppO2, 18ft ead, 17ft end
Stop at 460ft 5:00 (117) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.30 ppO2, 17ft ead, 16ft end
Stop at 450ft 5:00 (122) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.29 ppO2, 16ft ead, 15ft end
Stop at 440ft 5:00 (127) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.29 ppO2, 15ft ead, 14ft end
Stop at 430ft 7:00 (134) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.28 ppO2, 14ft ead, 13ft end
Stop at 420ft 4:00 (138) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.37 ppO2, 82ft ead, 103ft end
Stop at 410ft 3:00 (141) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.34 ppO2, 79ft ead, 100ft end
Stop at 400ft 3:00 (144) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.31 ppO2, 77ft ead, 97ft end
Stop at 390ft 4:00 (148) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.28 ppO2, 74ft ead, 94ft end
Stop at 380ft 3:00 (151) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.25 ppO2, 72ft ead, 91ft end
Stop at 370ft 5:00 (156) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.22 ppO2, 69ft ead, 88ft end
Stop at 360ft 5:00 (161) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.19 ppO2, 66ft ead, 85ft end
Stop at 350ft 5:00 (166) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.16 ppO2, 64ft ead, 82ft end
Stop at 340ft 5:00 (171) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.13 ppO2, 61ft ead, 79ft end
Stop at 330ft 6:00 (177) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.10 ppO2, 59ft ead, 76ft end
Stop at 320ft 6:00 (183) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.07 ppO2, 56ft ead, 73ft end
Stop at 310ft 6:00 (189) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.04 ppO2, 54ft ead, 70ft end
Stop at 300ft 8:00 (197) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 1.01 ppO2, 51ft ead, 67ft end
Stop at 290ft 8:00 (205) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.98 ppO2, 49ft ead, 64ft end
Stop at 280ft 8:00 (213) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.95 ppO2, 46ft ead, 61ft end
Stop at 270ft 8:00 (221) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.92 ppO2, 44ft ead, 58ft end
Stop at 260ft 9:00 (230) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.89 ppO2, 41ft ead, 55ft end
Stop at 250ft 11:00 (241) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.86 ppO2, 39ft ead, 52ft end
Stop at 240ft 11:00 (252) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.83 ppO2, 36ft ead, 49ft end
Stop at 230ft 22:00 (274) on Trimix 2.0/90.0, 0.16 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 220ft 7:00 (281) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 1.38 ppO2, 117ft ead, 131ft end
Stop at 210ft 9:00 (290) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 1.32 ppO2, 112ft ead, 125ft end
Stop at 200ft 10:00 (300) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 1.27 ppO2, 106ft ead, 118ft end
Stop at 190ft 16:00 (316) on Trimix 10.0/70.0, 0.67 ppO2, 23ft ead, 34ft end
Stop at 180ft 12:00 (328) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.35 ppO2, 45ft ead, 73ft end
Stop at 170ft 15:00 (343) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.29 ppO2, 41ft ead, 68ft end
Stop at 160ft 5:00 (348) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.23 ppO2, 38ft ead, 63ft end
Stop at 160ft 9:00 (357) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 1.05 ppO2, 82ft ead, 92ft end
Stop at 150ft 1:00 (358) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 1.00 ppO2, 76ft ead, 86ft end
Stop at 150ft 16:00 (374) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.16 ppO2, 34ft ead, 58ft end
Stop at 140ft 4:00 (378) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.10 ppO2, 30ft ead, 53ft end
Stop at 140ft 10:00 (388) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.94 ppO2, 70ft ead, 79ft end
Stop at 140ft 3:00 (391) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.10 ppO2, 30ft ead, 53ft end
Stop at 130ft 17:00 (408) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 1.04 ppO2, 27ft ead, 48ft end
Stop at 130ft 5:00 (413) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.89 ppO2, 64ft ead, 73ft end
Stop at 120ft 5:00 (418) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.83 ppO2, 58ft ead, 66ft end
Stop at 120ft 18:00 (436) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.97 ppO2, 23ft ead, 43ft end
Stop at 110ft 2:00 (438) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.91 ppO2, 19ft ead, 38ft end
Stop at 110ft 10:00 (448) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.78 ppO2, 52ft ead, 60ft end

[WIdiver_Paul]

Stop at 110ft 12:00 (460) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.91 ppO2, 19ft ead, 38ft end
Stop at 100ft 8:00 (468) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.85 ppO2, 16ft ead, 33ft end
Stop at 100ft 10:00 (478) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.72 ppO2, 46ft ead, 53ft end
Stop at 100ft 13:00 (491) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.85 ppO2, 16ft ead, 33ft end
Stop at 90ft 7:00 (498) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.78 ppO2, 12ft ead, 28ft end
Stop at 90ft 10:00 (508) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.67 ppO2, 40ft ead, 47ft end
Stop at 90ft 16:00 (524) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.78 ppO2, 12ft ead, 28ft end
Stop at 80ft 4:00 (528) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.72 ppO2, 8ft ead, 23ft end
Stop at 80ft 10:00 (538) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.62 ppO2, 34ft ead, 40ft end
Stop at 80ft 20:00 (558) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.72 ppO2, 8ft ead, 23ft end
Stop at 80ft 2:00 (560) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.62 ppO2, 34ft ead, 40ft end
Stop at 70ft 8:00 (568) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.56 ppO2, 28ft ead, 34ft end
Stop at 70ft 20:00 (588) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.65 ppO2, 5ft ead, 18ft end
Stop at 70ft 10:00 (598) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.56 ppO2, 28ft ead, 34ft end
Stop at 70ft 7:00 (605) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.65 ppO2, 5ft ead, 18ft end
Stop at 60ft 13:00 (618) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.59 ppO2, 1ft ead, 13ft end
Stop at 60ft 10:00 (628) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.51 ppO2, 22ft ead, 27ft end
Stop at 60ft 20:00 (648) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.59 ppO2, 1ft ead, 13ft end
Stop at 60ft 5:00 (653) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.51 ppO2, 22ft ead, 27ft end
Stop at 50ft 5:00 (658) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.45 ppO2, 16ft ead, 21ft end
Stop at 50ft 20:00 (678) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.53 ppO2, 0ft ead, 8ft end
Stop at 50ft 10:00 (688) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.45 ppO2, 16ft ead, 21ft end
Stop at 50ft 16:00 (704) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.53 ppO2, 0ft ead, 8ft end
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (708) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.46 ppO2, 0ft ead, 3ft end
Stop at 40ft 10:00 (718) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.40 ppO2, 10ft ead, 14ft end
Stop at 40ft 20:00 (738) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.46 ppO2, 0ft ead, 3ft end
Stop at 40ft 10:00 (748) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.40 ppO2, 10ft ead, 14ft end
Stop at 40ft 10:00 (758) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.46 ppO2, 0ft ead, 3ft end
Stop at 30ft 10:00 (768) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.40 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 30ft 10:00 (778) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.34 ppO2, 4ft ead, 8ft end
Stop at 30ft 20:00 (798) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.40 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 30ft 10:00 (808) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.34 ppO2, 4ft ead, 8ft end
Stop at 30ft 7:00 (815) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.40 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 20ft 13:00 (828) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.34 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 20ft 10:00 (838) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.29 ppO2, 0ft ead, 1ft end
Stop at 20ft 20:00 (858) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.34 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 20ft 10:00 (868) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.29 ppO2, 0ft ead, 1ft end
Stop at 20ft 8:00 (876) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.34 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 10ft 12:00 (888) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.27 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 10ft 10:00 (898) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.23 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 10ft 20:00 (918) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.27 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 10ft 10:00 (928) on Trimix 18.0/35.0, 0.23 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Stop at 10ft 13:00 (941) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, 0.27 ppO2, 0ft ead, 0ft end
Asc to sfc.   (941) on Trimix 21.0/50.0, -30ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 942.3ft

OTU's this dive: 419
CNS Total: 158.6%

1631.7 cu ft Trimix 2.0/90.0
838.2 cu ft Trimix 10.0/70.0
482.4 cu ft Trimix 18.0/35.0
804.1 cu ft Trimix 21.0/50.0
3756.4 cu ft TOTAL

[Chris H]

Don't take this the wrong way, but yikes!

During the deco for the 1000' dive don't forget the uncontrollable vomiting that occurred around 200ft.

try this thread

[FreediveWI]

First off, they didn't use V-planner for the dive. They used the Wienke tables that NAUI uses to teach all of their Tec stuff with. Those are the same tables that the WKPP uses on their extreme cave dives. They all employ deep stops, usually starting at 80% of max depth.

NAUI has even started to teach deep stops in their openwater courses- which is one reason why some shops are switiching over to NAUI instead of waiting 10 years for PADI to catch up.

Another thing is making sure that your P02's stay in-line so that is doesn't wind up biting you in the butt later on. This is one of the reasons why many of us no longer dive deep air- by swtiching to mix you keep your P02's down to a reasonable level.

Of course there's always the warmth factor. These extreme dives were done in the South Pacific. Warm water seems to be a bit more forgiving for toxing than cold water enviroments.

As far as profiles go it depends upon what wreck. In the past when we would dive something like the St. Albans we would do a 20 minute bottom time, on air, followed by around 45 minutes of deco, sometimes on air and other times on 02 which was supplied from the surface via a hooka hose. The times were derivied by following the Canadian Navy tables- which just happened to match the old Uwatec computers to within a minute of eachother.

Now, I would use something like 18/45 trimix, or possibly even 21/35, with a 50% bottle and, maybe, an 02 bottle. A 25 minute bottom time would only net me around 25 minutes of deco- I'd have to double check that number but I don't have my D-planner with me.

With something deeper, like the Grace Channon, an air dive would be the same 20 minute bototm time followed by 55 minutes of air deco according to the Canadian Navy tables. Doing the same dive today, with trimix and the same deco gas as mentioned before, my deco time would be more than cut in half.

One thing I started doing a long time ago, as soon as I read about it in Aquacorp's back in the early 90's, was to put in some deep stops on ALL of my dives. On something Like the Willy I would start at the top of the wreck, 60', and pull a minute stop every 10' on the way up. At the end of the day you would be surprised how much more energy I would have. Little things like that make a big difference.

One wreck that was really nice to use triox on, or heliotrox if you will, is the Wisconsin. A 28/30 mix with a couple of deco bottles allows for some nice 45-50 minute bottom times with a deco profile that won't leave you hanging all afternoon.

It's interesting to talk to some of the real old timers. They talk about doing dives to 285' for 8 minutes- as timed by their spring wound movie cameras, and then fly back up the line to deco out on navy tables while breathing welding 02. Sometimes they got bent and other times they didn't. One things for sure is that they found a lot of stuff- which has since been stripped off of the deeper wrecks in the last couple of years.

Since those are some of the more common wrecks around here I leave it there for now.

jon

[Bubblemaker]

"NAUI has even started to teach deep stops in their openwater courses- which is one reason why some shops are switiching over to NAUI instead of waiting 10 years for PADI to catch up."

I would like to know where this Info came from. I think if you check the stats its the opposite.

[FreediveWI]

In the NAUI RGBM instructor slide presentation for openwater students. Meanwhile the latest thing I read in my Undersea Journal, the PADI instructor mag, was tha they may be used for the tec-rec and trimix classes, but they were not going to be used in the rec courses.

The new NAUI guidelines, that I have seen, state doing a second deco stop on dives below 60'. The second stop is halfway between the max depth and the first safety stop- assuming no deco.

The NAUI tec stuff has been using Wienke tables for a few years now.

Jon

[Bubblemaker]

Thats Funny The Latest Undersea Journal I have First Quater 2004 Has a Article which says the oppisite. "Lessons for Recreational Divers From Technical Diving." By Grant W. Graves Lesson 17 last Paragraph states " Dont be in such a hurry to surface; add a deep safety stop at half your maximum depth, if possible. Ifs its not possible, throw in a few delays before your normal safety stop...."

And the last time I checked Openwater Divers max depth is 60ft.

[FreediveWI]

And the last time I checked Openwater Divers max depth is 60ft.

Funny, that doesn't stop PADI, and others, from teaching about how to dive deeper than 60' when teaching the tables. They even teach about emergency deco- which we all know isn't allowed in any openwater course.

Grant Graves is at the cutting edge, but is still held back by the PADI machine. He and I have disscussed this as we have written back and forth about a full-blown PADI apnea program, but the best we can do is to teach Distinctive Specailty courses in it- which BTW, I am starting this June.

PADI still doesn't allow for it, deep sotp theory an dhte weinke tables, in the basic openwater course. As for being behind the times, just look at how long it took them to jump on board with nitrox, semi-closed rebreathers, tec diving, and trimix. All of these activites are pursued by some of the top PADI brass, heck Grant teaches closed circut rebreather courses and PADI isn't anywhere near teaching that- but NAUI, IANTD and TDI do.

Many-Rae is one of their headquarter staff, and course director, who is getting ready to set another freediving record as I write this, but she hasn't been able to get a full blown APNEA course through them, just as a specialty, but IANTD has had one for a few years and NAUI has been publishing books on the subject since 97'.

One other point on the NAUI tec programs- they are very DIR. There are TDI instructors who would have never gotten past a NAUI program, because the standards are much higher.

Jon

[Bubblemaker]

I think your missing the Point! I dont think Dive shop's and Instructors are leaving PADI to go over to NAUI because the teaching deeper stop theory.

The people doing the dives to 1000+ ft are not openwater divers.