Nitrox - Trimix

[mud_diver]

There's also the whole physiological reason why argon is supposed to be better than air. There are many who can better explain that better than I can  .

Argon has a lower thermal coductivity than air, so it acts as a better insulator, and you should stay a little warmer. This is the same reason they fill with argon in between the panes of glass on your more expensive windows on your home. Saves on your energy bill.

[voodooconstant]

i didn't realize it was about the same cost.  I would have guessed it was more expensive.  Thanks for the heads up.

[dofundive]

Diving with the big steel tanks and dragging along 2 deco bottles, I guess I wouldn't consider the argon bottle to be much more of a problem. You are correct though, in that it is another set of things to consider (cost of buying and maintaining argon fills, argon reg, argon bottle mounts). IMO the extra cost and  trouble of the argon rig outweigh NOT using the tri-mix.
[/quote]

Not every trimix dive has to have two deco bottles. I do not swim my deco bottles when cave diving and was thinking about a tank mounted AL-14, which is kind of a pain.

The drag is not a major issue, (None at all for the 6 cuft) but as long as we are considering all the trade-offs...

[dofundive]

No one doesn't "have" to use argon. Again cost and availability may be a factor to some. Here in Milwaukee it costs around $6-$7 for an air fill. Argon costs $1 per cu ft. If I'm filling both of my 6 cu ft argon bottles I pay $12. In this case argon and air cost roughly the same and it's available. YMMV. There's also the whole physiological reason why argon is supposed to be better than air. There are many who can better explain that better than I can  .
[/quote]

On a per cuft basis, Argon is the most expensive gas I buy, more than helium and astronomical compared to air. I'm a litte suprised a dive shop charges $12 to fill two 6 cuft bottles, mine doesn't even bother charging me. But, given that situation, argon is a no-brainer.

My shop doesn't carry He/Ar so I use air when I can't find Argon with a reasonable effort.

-Michael

[dofundive]

You've got to be kidding....

It is indeed necessary to use a gas than the Trimix for inflation, but are you saying that we should be using air on deep dives because the 6cuft Argon bottle most of us use causes too much drag to be worth it?

I don't ever consider my Argon rig a "concern" unless it's empty and I want to dive.

Even if I'm using the 13cuft Argon bottle I'll take the extra drag and a clear head any day of the week.
[/quote]

Chris.  You read way too much into that short post.  The extra drag is not ridiculous, but does exist for the tank mounted AL-14.  My point was that people should realize they most likely will need the extra equipement when they go trimix. It is just part of the price of entry up in the northern states.

And as far as the "need" for separate inflation gas, even that is not always the case. I know FLA divers, both cave and ocean, that have used backgas (trimix) for suit inflation.  If the water temps are warm enough and the dives short enough it can be done.  It just seems wrong though...

-Michael

(EDIT): Sorry Matt and Chris, my bad.  Chris, from what I've seen posted later in this thread I guess you've got a reputation for being "MEAN" ! But what I think of most is that you have got the most hilarious avatars ever. This latest Batman one is my favorite. I would love to have seen theses people's face in person...

(Sorry for the off-top post, but I didn't think this warrented it's own thread!)

[Chris H]

Michael,
That was me, not Matt.  There is no doubt that extra equipment is needed when you dive Trimix.  I too have heard of people in warm climates using the mixed gas for inflation.  I don't think it is an option here.  I rarely dive my 14, the 6 works really well.  So well, in fact that I have another one on order.  Stupid price of entry... ;D

[matt t.]

You've got to be kidding....

It is indeed necessary to use a gas than the Trimix for inflation, but are you saying that we should be using air on deep dives because the 6cuft Argon bottle most of us use causes too much drag to be worth it?

I don't ever consider my Argon rig a "concern" unless it's empty and I want to dive.

Even if I'm using the 13cuft Argon bottle I'll take the extra drag and a clear head any day of the week.
[/quote]

Matt.  You read way too much into that short post.  The extra drag is not ridiculous, but does exist for the tank mounted AL-14.  My point was that people should realize they most likely will need the extra equipement when they go trimix. It is just part of the price of entry up in the northern states.

And as far as the "need" for separate inflation gas, even that is not always the case. I know FLA divers, both cave and ocean, that have used backgas (trimix) for suit inflation.  If the water temps are warm enough and the dives short enough it can be done.  It just seems wrong though...

-Michael

[/quote]
Agreed, (though Chris had the mean reply to your post ;D). There are always a few different ways to do things, but we all know that some ways are better than others depending on conditions. So far I haven't done a deco dive where I left my  bottles at the line. I don't feel comfortable with it even on a wreck I've been on before (cuts down on options if something happens during the dive) cave is obviously different. I will be dragging my 2 bottles around with me for a while. You are right in that every tri-mix dive doesn't "require" 2 bottles, but I like to have the extra bailout option in coldwater (freeflows). I did use my 14 cu ft argon rig for the first time last weekend and didn't really even notice it. As far as getting charged for the 6cu ft air fills...... Some shops are more generous than others. I haven't been offered a free fill. Here, if you connect the whip to a tank valve it's $6.50. Doubles are $13.

[DiveCaptDean]

Chris is "MEAN" ...Matt is "NICE"
> > > > > > > >

[Vtach]

Chris is mean because he drinks coffee, his wife makes him eat tofu, he has two siberian huskies and now a limp..... ;D

Did I mention the narcolepsy, the charter membership to Choads R US and the accusations that he sold Matt a bum car??? >

I can't imagine how the dogs get through it....poor neglected creatures.... ;D

[matt t.]

There was no accusation of a bum car. The headlights just don't work :'(