Scuba tank,Hydro,Visual,tumble,Valve service,O-2 clean if Nitrox too much $$ ?

[moneysavr]

Scuba tank,Hydro,Visual,tumble,Valve service,O-2 clean if Nitrox too much $$ ?

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I hope some shop owners chime in as I know you and you know me, lets keep it calm and fair to all!


Ok no e diver here but on a past service a hydro,vis and valve service? cost about a* $110, ya it's a steel on a 5 year round and yes I know you cant get air fill's over the Internet.
I can get hydro's local thru my local welding supply shop or the fire equipment service company from $15.00 - $19.00 and pal has a great tumbler and tumbling material from MCmaster Carr supply,simple green dose the o-2 clean and a drying rinse stand.
* this tank was a steel 119 non Nitrox just FYI

What gets me is my LDS said I needed to have a valve rebuild REQUIRED! I find out it's not required as in no DOT rule, it is a manufactures suggestion only,The valve is a main line valve in great shape and a visual look over is all it needed and I would gladly pay for a dis assembly reassembly and hell even a fresh burts disc.

And to all the folks that dont know a visual on any tank in hydro is not required and just a money making tool for PSI /PCI,tank inspectors and the LDS
PSI / PCI
IT IS JUST A RECOMEDATION and I am ok with this cost !!!!!!!!!! it may of saved many lives,,,
There are no DOT regulations relevant to the personal use or
transportation of pressurized canisters in a personal vehicle. DOT
regulations are relevant only to the commercial use and transport,,
but I think personally it is a great thing to do yearly to make sure all is good in the thing your breathing life supporting gas.
I fully support my LDS by spending lots of money yearly,no e-buying at all.
I can not get air fills on line I KNOW THAT! so that said re on and lets get the hot dogs out!

Ok this is a article to start the fire,

First, let’s start off with some of the rules and regulations regarding the inspection of scuba cylinders. By Unites States law, all compressed gas cylinders, including scuba, must be visually inspected at the time of hydrostatic testing. Hydrostatic testing is required every 5 years. So, by law, scuba cylinders must be visually inspected every 5 years. The scuba industry has adopted a recommendation by the Compressed Gas Association (CGA) that the cylinders should be visually inspected annually. By following this recommendation, the number of failures in scuba tanks has been greatly reduced. So, scuba cylinders do not need to be visually inspected annually. However, the annual inspection is a good thing and the practice should be continued.

The argument is that if the scuba cylinder’s pressure drops below 500 psi, then potentially, water or hydrocarbons can enter the cylinder. Ever watch Mythbusters? Many times when they need to propel something, the use air pressure. This air pressure is relatively small, less than 100 psi. Now, if less than 100 psi can propel a small object at hundreds of feet per second, do you really thing that water or dust can enter a scuba cylinder? Not really. Should we be concerned about water entering our scuba cylinders, yes. Especially if we use steel cylinders. That water can cause rust and possibly contaminate our O2 clean cylinders.

If you have taken a gas blending or Nitrox course, you should know how Nitrox is made. One of the most popular methods of blending Nitrox is called partial pressure (PP) blending. With PP blending, the blender first adds pure oxygen in the cylinder, then tops off with air. But in most instances, the scuba cylinder must be drained to empty in order to get the most accurate blend. So if a dive shop that has the policy of requiring a VIP every time your tank goes below 500 psi and they PP blend Nitrox, does that mean they are doing a VIP, and charging your for it, every time you get a Nitrox fill? That’s a very expensive Nitrox fill.

The truth is, that you do not need a VIP if you scuba cylinder falls below 500 psi. If it does so mysteriously, then it does need to be inspected. If you breath it down to empty underwater, it wouldn't hurt to have it checked just out to be safe. But you shouldn't have to pay for a VIP if the tank is at 300 psi. This is just another way for a dive store to unnecessary charge their customers. In this tough economy, the more money in your pocket, the better. That $15 for the mandatory VIP could be a couple more air fills so you can go dive again. Ask the person behind the counter why they have that policy. Ask them to prove their arguments. But most of all, be an educated consumer,
Credit to for article,
Duane Johnson
Precision Diving

Ok dive shop owners your practices ,rates, thoughts and comments as I know in these hard economic times result in desperate measures,,,,

[Chris H]

If you've already taken it someplace on your own to do the Hydro, spend $15 more dollars on a valve rebuild kit and have at it.  I have no idea what a full service hydro, vis, O2 cleaning etc costs, but having done a few, there is a lot of work involved.  Not to mention the stores have overhead as well. I've never heard of a shop requiring a vis after falling below 500psi.  I think I'd find a new shop to go to if that were the case.

If it really makes your Cheerios sink, buy a compresser and fill whatever you want, whenever you want.  I just got my compressor together, and when coupled with price the Haskel Booster and T's of helium and oxygen, I could pay to have a lot of tanks serviced and filled.

YMMV.

[matt t.]

I like hot dogs, and chili dogs with mustard even better, but I'm not sure what that has to do with scuba tanks. This has been discussed many times here and other places. The DOT has their rules and the "scuba industry" has their own mostly made up rules. If you want to play you have to pay. If you don't want to pay a LDS, then you have to pay $3500 + for a compressor and you can fill what you want, whenever you want to. I own a compressor and booster and still have my hydros and cleaning done (8 this year so far). The nice thing about your own set up is that you can control the quality of what you are putting in the tanks. This is the 3rd year owning a compressor and sine I started filling my own tanks I haven't had a spot of rust. In the past I had to have my steel tanks tumbled every year. YMMV.

[moneysavr]

Yes I strongly agree on the compressor and quality control on gas,no problems on paying to play that's not the issue ,Its the economic times seem to be changing the rules with shops,shop owners  / or the dive industry to generate income.

The heart of the matter is as a non compressor owner,And could at any time initiate a compressor-Scuba Amp & bank system non issue!
but as I have seen with many at home gas blenders I have questioned is the liability?dose your home owners insurance cover your filling practices on site?  are you just filling personal use or is your dive pal getting fill's also? if so are you zoned for manufacturing/commercial in your community?your neighbors know? Bet they don't!  MMM what if the town got a little email about what your doing in your garage with high pressure gases & tank's,welding tanks,hazardous materials storage!!! OMG :o :o OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO MR> BILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!
Now back to the point rent a commercial building zoned commercial with proper insurance cover the liability,equipment,site,proper equipment maintenance, ect. I am sure the cost's would be prohibitive and not cost effective that's why I am supporting the local LDS & not garage vodoo gas blenders  with a 30 year old copy of Oxy hackers book!

I have no problem paying for a visual,hydro's to a local LDS and as a business owner paying a(* fair mark up! )The sticking point a valve rebuild suggested by a manufacture being told/sold to unsuspecting customers as mandatory may be a bit misleading! *

Guess I am looking for thoughts from some shop owners  on their practices or other divers that support their local LDS,and not lessons on gas blending in your garage.

[Chris H]

OK.  Let's approach this in a different direction.  Matt and I both own compressors and still give plenty of money to brick and mortar dive shops.

Did you question the dive shop that told you a valve rebuild was required?  You brought up insurance.  Perhaps the LDS's insurance company requires the valve be serviced?  Insurance and litigation is the root o most evil in this country.  Throw in religion and you have a trifecta, but that is probably a different topic.

BTW, I don't have the OxyHacker book.

[moneysavr]

Chris,
I am glad you do support the LDS,
At this time yes a valve was reported to( have) to be rebuilt at hydro as it follows with manufacturers suggested! I am working my way thru the BS to find out if this is the PSI / PCI  propaganda, or just a policy of this shop.

I agree that any suspect valve it should be serviced,burst disc replaced and proper torque on older valves. and valve in question is not a O-2 tank,heck one of my  100% O-2 tanks just back from hydro  had no valve service from my gas supplier and its close to 20 years old,

Insurance the shop owner said nothing about insurance yet,

Too bad on the OH book its a  reference material and a fair addition to any library not sure if its on E-books yet for all you techie kids

Love to see any shop owners that have been to cylinder inspection training this year to see their policies

[matt t.]

I'm sorry if I'm not getting your point. It is standard industry practice to rebuild valves and replace burst discs at hydro time (obviously every 5 years). If you or a LDS is filling pure 02 into your tanks I don't see that this should be a problem. Dirty valves are the most likely failure point/fire ignition point on a tank and are overlooked a lot of the time at visual and hydro time. If you aren't interested in paying a LDS to service your tanks/valves/ regs, etc everything is available online to do it yourself if you have the aptitude (I just did 10-12 valves. $15 a kit, $6 per burst disc, and $100 for an ultrasonic cleaner). As far as running compressors, filling tanks, and storing gas bottles at home, my (Farmers Ins.) homeowners policy doesn't require anything special for me to be able to do it as long as I don't accept money for it. If I accept money it becomes a business and a extra liability policy is required. I don't make it a practice to fill for others. I will on occasion if necessary, but I don't charge $$$. On a side note I would probably have the 20 year old valve rebuilt if you are running pure 02 through it. You are just looking for trouble if you don't.

[jeffberry]

If your doing partial pressure fills get it serviced!  Having seen what happends to a booster an 02 last year pay the littlebit an get it serviced!

[moneysavr]

Ok back to the start 21% AIR ???????? not a  NITROX tank valve,,, no Partial pressure O2 fills,,, JUST OLD AIR air 21%
Burst disc ok 5 years old ok,,,,,replace, & proper installation = torque to specs, I have no major isue with that at all, done at inspection of valve and tank.
This is  a shop pushing valve service on the recommendation,training of PSI/ PCI I think.
no response but they don't want to email back and forth at this time,
valve service from my read is a manufacture suggestion on a 5 year period / hydro
not mandatory, again not  50% -100 % 02, not partial pressure fills. just air fills on a darn near new looking valve inside & out!

Now to the garage blending station operators,this hits close to home a sample link hope this works, FYI
are you compliant with these requirements or are you exempt in your locality/?? to me if this all go's wrong as did the o-2 tank blowing up the air dales garage we all get a bad rap in the field
 
 


Man with free fills I got to send the gang your way!
dive safe,
and fill safe too!
food for thought,
I know it was not a fill station but this is what could go wrong! ouch! read down were he was putting out the fire with one hand missing that has to hurt! that's why fire departments have rules and regulations on this type of operation!


The basics are this. He was coming home from a game and pulled into the garage in his truck. Somehow a 40 cu ft scuba tank of 100% O2 got knocked over. It was a deco bottle, totally normal thing for a tech diver to have. The tank shattered. It is likely that a piece of shrapnel from the tank took off his hand. The oxygen somehow created a massive fire that a neighbor described as an explosion. (A full investigation has not been done, so these "facts" are just as I understand them from what I have been told by various people involved.) Cindy was in the house brushing her teeth. The explosion broke her mirror in the bathroom and gave her a nasty cut to the face. She ran out into the garage and Rick was on fire. He was trying to put the fire out with a garden hose, with one hand missing

[Vtach]

I think you are dredging a bit here on this.  Fire Departments have very little interest, time or jurisdiction for the inspection and control of private residences.  The requirements that you post are for businesses.  If you have the interest in setting up your own personal, private fill station there is nothing legally stopping you.  There are very few laws (if any) that apply for the consumer regulating scuba gear.  It is all industry standard with no binding legislation.  Safety and insurance is probably the biggest driving factor in those rules that diveshops use.  I don't blame them either with the some of the poorly maintained equipment that the some people bring in.  If your not happy, talk with the owner and see if you can work something out.  If you are a good client they will try and keep you.  Some businesses overcharge clients that they don't like to work with so they go elsewhere....