What event made you head toward/away from DIR?

[Dive time]

I think you may be alittle heated.  Don't take what I've said out of context.  I said that, "CCR diving is the future and soon anyone who wants to go deep and dive safely will go that route.  Not to say that diving Doubles isn't fun or safe, just not for deep diving given the time and amount of gear required."  
I think that I may be way past the DIR phase as I have put in the committment to dive CCR and understand the risks.  I have no problem diving very deep and love it.  I dive safe and have all the gear you have and more.  My rig is clean, neat, and totally squared away.  Anyone who has seen my diving can't say anything about not being up to par any everythink.  
If you chose not to put in the time and effort to be the best diver.  Thats fine.  Don't blast me for diving the way I do.  To you,  "That is a huge amount of preparation that I am not ready to commit to.", and thats fine just be careful when you flame me.  

[scubert]

Dive time,
this one statement basically sums up the main problem with non-standardized gear setups (as opposed to dir or even just your own groups standardization).
Everyone's..Gear..Slightly..Different..


If DIR doesn't work for you, fine.  But I don't think that DIR will kill us just because we don't like the idea of metal-metal connections or split fins.  Most of us here that are on our way to DIR are on this journey for a reason, we have found thru our experiences that this system works for us, and for our group. 

This topic was meant to explore the how's and when's of going DIR or being turned away from DIR in our actual dive experiences.
Do you have an dive experience that has turned you away from the concept of DIR, or do you just not like being told where to store your safe second/knife?

[WIdiver_Paul]

CCR: I don't see much difference in the two, KPP uses RBs; SCR works for them because of cost, testing, etc. and they have funds for  gas available. They did most end-of-the-line dives on OC, the RB was just an adaptation to extend their planning.  They do all their dives on their stage bottles anyhow and don't touch the backgas. The RB is just backup... When WKPP did their last push, CCR was highly experimental and had a higher fatality rate due to the fact most of the units out there were only test units. Now even DiveRite is coming out with one. Same thing goes for computers. When KPP was doing it's thing computers were all one or two gas using 70 year old algorithms and unreliable as hell. There's been a quantum leap since then. Tables are neccesary for an experimental dive pushing the known envelope and requiring 11 hours of deco, but for most recreational divers, especially cold water divers, they won't be pushing the envelope that hard. For pushing Wakulla with a team of 15, yeah, confiscate everyone's computer and make them dive your table. AUS requires it for their divers too. But computer does not automatically equal stroke. Especially when you know that the good computers are using the same tables the DIR divers are putting in their hip pocket. I'd trust the computer more than i'd trust my ability to read my own handwriting and probable delineation from the planned time or loss of deco gas. And then if you factor your typical cave dive doing 10 minutes at 70 for 300', dropping down to 120' for 30 minutes for 1200', sloping gradually up to a restriction at 30' and then doing it all over in reverse, you'd fill up a notebook with contingency tables, and they'd all probably be wrong. Bottom timers can fail too (i've actually seen this happen many more times than a computer)  I think we'll see GUE change their stance on this in the future.


Yep, Jason, I predict we'll see the idea repackaged and ripped off again by big three when they can safely sidestep it into their programs (hmmm now that GI3 has a muzzle it might happen sooner than never), which would be nice so we can chuck the "Peak Buoyancy" and "Advanced Diver" cards and replace them with classes people can use.

/ putting $100 on 2007

[Vtach]

First of all, I think its pretty hard to compare rebreather diving with open circuit diving when focusing on equipment, hardware and issues surrounding such.  I think the fundamentals of DIR are important for both but you cannot take the literal translation of DIR for open circuit and apply it to CCR diving.  From an equipment perspective, they are two different beasts all together.

I guess I don't see any blasts from anyone on your type of diving.  You seem to be thinking that folks here are condemning rebreathers.  I agree that they are probably the future (kinda like Nitrox/Trimix was in the late 80's-early 90's) but right now they are damn expensive and so is the training.  I think most here on the board would have no problem with playing with rebreathers if someone else would pay for it.  ;D  So focusing on OC and not RB's, DIR for the technically oriented divers, like myself, works and works well so why change my open circuit configuration to something completely unknown and untested for the sake of "making it my own".  I would rather use my current DIR gear/planning/execution than trying to develop something new and find out the hard way that it does not work.  That is not to say if I find something DIR that does not work, I will continue using it because GI III says so.  At the same time, I will not condemn someone else to "STROKE" status because they dive differently than I.  I may not choose to make a 250 foot dive with that person but no one gains anything by labeling.  I hope that we can all get away from the "if you do that you will die" attitude that permeates DIR horribly.  You are the captain of your own ship........sail it how you want....just don't expect me to sail with you. ;D

Can you elaborate on why doubles (I'm assuming you mean "open circuit") is not safe for deep diving and if not safe, why do most CCR divers use it for a bailout?  This might be a good topic to break off from this one in DIR, maybe a Rebreather category since Dive Time can share some knowledge on the subject?  Administrators?

[schultz]

Is it me or are we loosing sight of the original topic at hand? And don't you people work?

Not certain what you meant about "peeking over the fence" Paul... I've known about DIR for about the same time I've known you as a diver. I think I tried my first Backplate (all within DIR specs) in 2001, but having bought equipment a few years prior, I just couldn't afford nor justify upgrading all the stuff for DIR. That's one factor that kept me away from DIR.

And just to clarify things, DIR is not necessarily synonymous with technical diving. One can dive DIR with a single tank and well within the tables of the big three, without having doubles, sidemounts, or other such items. Maybe some of us are not being as macho as others by not doing mixed gas, or going down 300 feet all the time, but then again, some of us have little to prove, and we're certainly not trying to compensate for lack of something else. 

Lately, I have been diving with a friend from Portugal. Nice guy, who is as serious about windsurfing as much as he is about diving - and loves how the shipwrecks here are not all wasting away like they do in the open ocean. He's adopted much of the DIR method, but he agrees that it can be a little too dogmatic at times. He's got all the necessary equipment (at least what he could bring from Portugal) and his dive technique is pretty damn good for someone with under 100 dives under his belt. But he hasn't done any technical diving yet.

Currently, he's trying to develop his interactions with others in the scuba world by becoming a DM. So far his major criticism regarding the big three is that they do not focus on even simple things like trim and buoyancy skills. But because of that he always tries to communicate this simple issue to OW students. I think he'll be one of the nice DIR guys that Paul spoke about - being respectful to all that dive, even if they lack tech certs, and not necessarily spewing some SCUBA acronymns and tecno-babble that are off topic to the subject at hand to impress everyone of his knowledge.

As far as I'm concerned, having been diving for a while, and like I stated earlier, my wife and I were/are in need of equipment to replace some of our current stuff. This is where DIR is coming back into light for the both of us, since even she admits she's outgrown a lot of her own equipment. We're both experienced divers, with hundreds of dives under our belts,  and have travelled all over the world on some of our exploits, we're simply continuing our education as our experiences warrant.

As far as the photography is concern, I have to agree with Chris and Matt - How do they take all those photos of these DIR guys underwater if it's not DIR to be with a photographer?

CCR?!!! They've got great music!  ;D
Personally, I have yet to try any rebreather, but that something I might actually get a chance to do sometime next year. I'm not opposed to using them, anf look forward to when the technology becomes a little more affordable. If I can incorporate one into my underwater photography and diving style, perhaps I would get fewer fish butts!

[WIdiver_Paul]

I kind of like what you had to say until you started going off-topic about portugese windsurfers, anyway, there's two ways to discuss things :

1.) Have an opinion on something and try to inform with as much fact, knowledge, information, personal experience and detail as possible to give the listener a broad spectrum of information to make a logical decision one way or the other.

2.) If fact or knowledge are absent, personally attack the victim as being arrogant, stupid, dangerous, impotent, teh gay, or ignorant.

Everything i've read here has been pretty much on topic: "What event made you head toward/away from DIR?". So far we've discussed attitude, equipment, experiences, and details of the 'system' that may weigh heavily one way or the other in turning a diver toward or away from 'DIR'.




/ btw if you're gonna mod my photos on your website to sniper my hotlinks, you could remove the rest of them while you're at it...
// still wondering about that Benjamin manifold and steel '72's...
/// ease off the #2, on the internet and in person
//// "There's no such thing as 'Tech Diving', diving is diving" - George Irvine

[Chris H]

I don't think anyone was flaming you.  You showed up on the board today and jumped right into a DIR forum.  We are more civil on this board than most when in  it comes to this topic, so we're sorry if we offended you.

So if I understand your post correctly, are you saying that the best divers are rebreather divers and anyone diving OC, especially OC that is configured to DIR specs is wasting their time and could never be the "best" :?  I was asking you reasonable questions about your gear based on the couple posts you made. Instead of answering them you jumped right back into your opinion that rebreathers rule, and again you promised us that your gear is all squared away and you are a safe diver.  If that is flaming you, perhaps I'm guilty.  I didn't say that rebreathers were bad.  I agree that perhaps we can have a Rebreather section and Dive Time can share his broad knowledge with the rest of us who, for all this time, thought WE were going to be the "best" diver.

[WIdiver_Paul]

I was trying to remember exactly what it was that surprised me to hear about , and I remember now that it was about the finger-tight second stages. I guess there were a few accidents losing regulators with hoses flying everywhere, and now that isn't part of the system. (had this one happen to me once, luckily it was only on the surface!)

[matt t.]

0
I guess you didn't see the GUE DVD series that was put out a year or 2 ago. They were clearly using the RB-80 THROUGHOUT the 17,000+ foot Wakulla dive, and OC for deco at the end. As to trusting your computer before your own handwriting, you can get plenty of free deco software off of the internet (if you don't want to pay for "Deco Planner"), and print up and laminate your tables. I agree that I don't want to have to figure out my"chicken scratch" writing when things go bad. How many bottom times and computers have you seen go bad? Personally I've never seen any. At this point I prefer to deco based on the tables I've generated with Deco Planner based on the deepest depth we hit. I do have one of the new Uwatec "TEC" computers (in gauge mode) that will give you "average depth" at this point I still prefer to deco on bottom depth as compared to "average depth". We may be in the water a little longer but still coming out of the water "cleaner" is a good thing.

[schultz]

Thanks for the chill-pill Paul. It's good to know I can rely on you to give me

First allow me to apologize to you and everyone here. My intent on the last post was not to offend, belittle, defame, or flame you or the others, I was merely using your own words from a previous post to illustrate the example that everyone tends to make and that is that DIR equals Technical Diving. This, in my opinion, is what scares new divers away from some valuable techniques and concepts.

Now, some may subscribe to all the GI3'isms out there that by saying diving is diving, but there are other definitions for technical diving. "By one definition the minimal requirement of a technical dive, the characteristic that sets it off from other kinds of scuba-based  diving, is that on a technical dive the diver uses more than one breathing mixture.  Just diving beyond the limits defined for recreational diving is not enough to qualify as technical diving, especially if air is the only breathing gas.  However, deep air diving using other gas mixtures and oxygen for decompression, for example, would be regarded as technical diving.  Also, a dive with rebreather apparatus might be regarded as a technical dive."[sup]1[/sup]

Almost everyone in this particular thread has done some level of technical diving. That being said, most of us have adopted some level of Hogarthian method in our diving. The problem is we utilized it at the technical level of diving, using multiple stages, deco profiles, and re-breathers. But because we use these techniques on a regular basis, people outside the technical realm assume that what we are doing, with all our equipment strapped to out backs and sides is DIR.

My main argument is that almost all of us often equate these terms as one in the same. This is an error on all our parts, and in my opinion, it's discussions like this, heated as they may be, that tend to steer people attempting to learn safer ways of diving. If we want promote some if not all aspects of DIR, then removing technical babble from threads such as this may help better educate those out there that do not necessary know or want to know about technical diving.

Had I learned about DIR in a different contexts (e.g. outside technical dive forums), perhaps I would have adopted aspects of the philosophy sooner.


[sup]1[/sup] , R.W. Bill Hamilton, Ph.D., and Joel D. Silverstein