Recreationall TRIMIX

[WIdiver_Paul]

I think the rec. trimix is a GREAT idea, GUE has promoted the idea for years.
I have nothing to add, except to say that I am seeking to take this course, after finding a store in Minneapolis that is offering this course and doing their checkouts at Wazee. All I have to say to any instructor that isn't seeking to offer this course in the near future is that you are losing out, and to get with the times! NOT ALL DIVERS ENJOY BEING NARC'D, EVEN ONLY AT 100-130 FEET!!!
My drug days are LONG GONE (!) If I want to get high again, I'll find something less likely to kill me, like crack.

[puddlejumper1]

Now I am real confused here so some one help me out? First thing that seems to thrown about is that technical divers don't want trimix taught to recreational users because they don't believe that He has a place below 130-100'. who is spating that happy crappy around. All of the Trimix divers I know will mix He for these dives. What I am real confused about is several misconceptions that I have just read. First what the he.. does anyone need with a He analyzer? No offense Jon but that is the worst load of ... well I digress. Lets take a simple assumption and assume that I old Joe Schmoe the recreational diver wants to dive to 120' PO2 of 1.4 (he can either have a good old aluminum 80 or a set of nifty PST 130's that his local LDS convinced him were the bomb). Now he wants a fill of good old 30/30 (the dirty mix). Lets assume that his LDS (or him if he is filling himself) screws up big time and flubs the He setting it at 13% instead of 30%. Big deal? Who the heck cares? A 30% He is only going to give him an END of 75' or so. Now that big He screw up of 13% is going to give him an END of 100'. Decompression obligation should be none since he is recreational and has not been taught deco procedures. So what if they screw up and add to much lets say an END of 30' or 59% He. Again so what he just built a deco obligation of 3 minutes at 20' Jeeze isn't that the 3 minute drill. Now if any one can screw up that bad the 02 is going to bad. Just take them out back and shoot them. Stick with analyzing the 02 and leave the $700.00 He analyzer at home. Though I agree that a LDS should have one with the idiots they have working the fill station. The second thing is what this will do to Recreational diving. Short answer not much. I can take a whole 12 minutes diving at 120' on a 30/30. That includes ascent time down but not the 3-4 minutes up. Adding He is only going to clear the Narcosis not make the dive longer. If they are going to run this than it needs to be with Deco or you are just inviting trouble with divers who will push the limits and start to deco with out knowing what to do. Of course since my highest card is PADI rescue what the heck do I know? After all I am just a stroke. ;D

[Omicron]

I'm only answering part of your post, near the end.

This is the exact point of the class - it's not a decompression class, it's not there to help you have 60 minutes of bottom time at 130'. It to help remove narcosis from the recreational ranges of diving.

[puddlejumper1]

Gee yep that sounds about right. You will definitly do that. But here is a question for you. Will you understand what you are doing? Is all this screwing around worth it. I think the class is a good idea. Hell I even think that using mix on dives less than 130' is a good idea. ( How few of the people I have dove with will ever know. ) But I would think that you are up against the limits here and personaly I would be better served by a Mix class encompassing deco and diving to 150'. Kill the Advanced Nitrox and Decompression procedures and teach Trimix 21/35 to a 150' with decompression procedures. The time and effort to do this is going to be not that much different. I would really like to see Trimix seperated out and taught as a class on mix alone with no diving. Of course a class for decompression would be needed. Over and over again I hear about how it was great that I learned s-drills and valve drills and I can remove my deco bottle underwater in such and such a time. The perfectly honest truth is this is filler material.

[FreediveWI]

Puddlejumper,

So many points to respond to that I might miss a few.

First off, I don't think that diving trimix is that big a deal. All of the negatives that you mentioned are the EXACT same things that the local shops, and dive magazines, were saying 12 years ago about nitrox. Now you can't go anywhere without finding a shop that blends nitrox- unless they are really backwards!

As it turns out, recreational divers can handle nitrox and haven't died in vast numbers. Helium is just the latest victim of this type of thinking. I still think that in 10 years most of the shops that are now pumping nitrox will also be pumping helium. It's just not as difficult as people would have you believe. IF you worried about someones bouyancy control and them not being able to maintain a proper ascent while on trimix, I would be just as worried about them doing the dive on air.

Helium works great on shallower depths because you can not only have a clear head, but you can also breath easier, even on a cheap regulator, which makes cutting with a hacksaw a whole lot easier at depth. ;D You don't get the C02 build up, and thus the urge to overbreath your regualtor, that I see happen with some out of shape scuba divers who can't swim against a simple current.

I believe that the Navy uses trimix in their rebreathers starting at 70' for the EOD guys- that comes from what I've read.

For scuba it adds an extra bit of confidence that your regulator won't freeze up on you at depth. One regulator that I have seen a particularly large amount of freeze-ups on are the Scubapro's- thus they have been nickamed "scubaflows". Given this reputation, I know that if you use enough helium in your mix you can even get a Scubpro to work well, meaning not freeflow, while do deep, cold water diving.

BTW: When I talk about cold water diving I don't mean ice diving. You can get almost any regulator to work on an ice dive, but take that same regualtor out on Lake Michigan for a winter charter with the wind blowing and the currents running and they will ALL freeze-up.

As far as not using a HE anaylzer, I have done it both ways. I know the rule of thumb is +/- 1% on 02 and +/-10% on HE, but I still like knowing exactly what I have in my tanks. IF your going to go through the hassel of diving mix you might as well be safe and do it right.

You could save money buy buying a palm and D-plan instead of your laptop with V-planner on it. BTW: I have used both of those programs and have a LOT more faith in D-plan than I ever did In V-planner, or the old DR. X program. A $900 dive computer is a waste of money in my book, but an $800 HE anaylzer is money well spent- if your diving mix.

As far as you being a stroke, I have no idea. IF you smoke, are out of shape, can't put your gear on by yourself, run out of back gas, run out of deco gas, dive only deep air, then maybe you are a stroke. IF these areas don't apply to you then I would guess that your not a stroke. Since I don't recall meeting you I'll let you decide. Since you've already taken the first step to get onthe mix, and off of deep air, I would certainly give you the benefit of the doubt.

The fluff material you describe in the deco classes are acutal skills that you will need, if you dive enough. I have had to hand off deco bottles to strokes, I mean "divers", that have run out of gas on deep dives before. This was a usefull skill. Shooting bags is a nice skill as I have had my main lights fail while night diving on the St. Albans before and had to do midwater deco without getting back to the line. I've know divers who needed to go to their back up masks, had regulators fail during deco and had to switch out second stages underwater, ect., ect. These things happen and it's good to have a plan.

BTW: c-cards mean very little. One of the best divers I know has ony two cards, his basic c-card and his full cave card.

If your going for the ovbious DIR slam, I will just say this. I have dove other ways and only after seeing how many ways that you could do it wrong did I choose to adopt a DIR mentality. Since I have there isn't a single DIR diver that I have ever met that I wouldn't dive with- especially those trained by GUE. I have met plenty of people with a big stack of cards, and a truck full of gear, that I wouldn't get in the water with.

If I missed any points I am sure that you will remind
me. ;D

As far as combining the trimix with the Deco class, I think that's a great idea. The thinking behind the recreational trimix class is to first take the "voodoo" factor out of diving helium, and then teach you how to extend those times, through a deco class, with a clear head, instead the the ass-backwards way that it is now being taught. If you already have divers who are comfortable with He in a no-deco setting, they can step right into a full- blown deco course with a lot less trouble than who are trying to run through all of those 150', cold water, air dives right now- with the hopes of "one day" being able to dive mix.

Jon

[Omicron]

Perfect response Freedive.

Like you said, I'd agree that actually diving and planning trimix is NOT the tricky part at all. Nitrox isn't that hard, you really would just need a different set of tables.

The "tough" part about trimix isn't actually the trimix. It's the skills you need to survive when things go pear shaped at 200 feet.

But considering we are discussing recreational trimix, it's not an issue at all.

It's just another gas.

[puddlejumper1]

Here is an interesting side note. I dove today with someone who indicated that the gentleman in Minnesota has yet to teach this class and it has been almost a year. Now take that with a grain since it is second hand info. The person that I was discussing this with is very in the know in the twin cities however. Still for my money I think that the class is a waste. The reason that you seem to keep bringing up is not the reason however. Put it simply Narcosis is not enough of a factor at 120' or less to justify in my mind (as the consumer) to add the increased headaches that will go with doing mix. And yes there are headaches. Just think about EAD tables and conversions and .... As for the great acceptance of Nitrox I disagree. I have dived all over these lakes and the majority of fill sattions still either do not carry EANX. If they do you will usually get the response that I recieved this weekend when looking for a quick 32. "Well I can't do that as I have not been trained. You will have to come back when the boss is here." Just a few major areas off of the top of my head. Door County, Straits of Mackinac, Keeweenaw. Outside of the metros I havn't found much common place Nitrox. In the Fox Valley the largest LDS had never rented thier nitrox tanks out to anyone outside of class before I started doing it. The are still very rarely used now. In a club that I belong to which has over 50 members last time I checked less than 5 had EANX (though I think that number has increased due to some recent sign ups). My point is this EANX is not really all that mainstream yet either.


And as for DIR. I think that there has never been anything wrong with DIR that getting rid of George would not have fixed. Fundamentaly the concept is great the there is only one way approach is not. Tom Mount is a prime example of this.

BTW - I have greatly enjoyed discussing this with you and find that it is refreshing to have an open chat with out it getting nasty. If any post I have made "reads" oofensive my apologies. It is not meant that way.

8)

[FreediveWI]

Working on a charter boat on Lake Michigan I can tell you that a large portion of the divers are using nitrox. I would say that almost everyone who comes up from the Chicago area uses it, and a growing number of Wisconsin divers are using it. Now we have a growing number who are using triox and trimix. THis can make a big difference on dives to the Milwaukee and the Wisconsin.

When I have dove in warm water nitrox is everywhere. Most resorts even have eals where you get unlimited nitrox fills for an extra $100 a week. It makes a big difference when your doing 5 hour and a half long dives a day. Many of the liveaboards have it because it makes their divers safer- and they are often far away from any chamber if their's a problem.

There are also a bunch of divers around here that have made their own blending systems and mix it themselves. Some add the 02 at home and go to their local shop for an air top-off, which is not the best idea and the shop owner has the right to know if you are doing this.

I have been able to get nitrox fills most everywhere I have gone- Seattle, Idaho, Tobemorey, Cabo, Utila, Bonaire, Roatan, Curacou, Florida, San Diego, Wazze,blah, blah, blah. In Milwaukee I think every shop now offers it. The Lender even has a system right by the boat for divers to get their mixes- which makes it easy for the other dive boats down there to get nitrox as well.

Up at Wazze keith is even pumping trimix, as well as 3,00 psi argon fills. Ntirox goes without saying.

That being said, most dives shops, if they have a clean compressor, should be able to put together a blending station for less than $500, and I know of a couple people who did it for less than $300 by search out the OEM's of the valves and digital guage.

As far as the rest of the state goes, I didn't even know the Fox vallley had a dive shop?

I do know of one local shop that is in the process of putting together a mobile blending station for classes and trips. This station will be able to pump anything you want to at least 3500 psi.

I have another firend who already has one and uses it for all of his classes. His is actually large enough to be able to change into your drysuit in it if it happens to snow while your getting ready.

How is your blending station coming along?

Jon

[Omicron]

The recreation trimix course would still be a nice stepping stone though. Learn the basics about mix, dive some easy mixes a few times...

I kind of agree w/ you about the narcosis though puddlejumper. I certainly don't *feel* narced around the 120/130 foot depths...but I know that I am. It would be kind of cool to do those dives knowing for sure that my mind is running @ %100. Of course...heh...that doesn't happen that often on the surface though either

[FreediveWI]

Narcosis is a tricky thing. I know in the past I have done air dives way past any normal limit and thought that I didn't "feel" narked and handled things ok because I managed to shoot off a whole roll of film while I was down there- and the pictures even turned out. Obviously I must have been blasted even if I didn't "feel" it.

What really sold me on triox was when I used it on the Willy- a simple little wreck that I must have close to 1,000 dives on. I now mostly freedive her so you wouldn't think that narcosis would be a problem. When I have dove her on triox I saw so many more details, especially inside the engine room, that I had never noticed on all of my previous dives- another area where triox could have a big advantage is in an overhead enviroment. It was close to being a whole new wreck. I certainly didn't go into deco on that dive and it could have easily been done on a single tank. Once you move a little deeper, to wrecks like the Wisconsin, it makes even a bigger difference.



Jon